John Hospers Vs. Charles Jay

There has been some controversy over how many votes John Hospers received as the 1972 Libertarian Presidential candidate and weather the 2008 Boston Tea Party candidate received a higher number of votes. Both Hospers and Jay are their party's first presidential candidates.

According to the United State House of Representatives Clerks Office John Hospers received 2,691 votes for President in 1972. This information is available at http://clerk.house.gov/member_info/electionInfo/1972election.pdf on page 52. So far according to CNN (see http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/president/allcandidates/) Charles Jay has received 2,346 votes so far. With many write-in votes left uncounted it is likely that Jay in 2008 will surpass the number of votes received by Hospers in 1972.

The Boston Tea Party placed it's candidate in three state ballots for its first Presidential election while the Libertarian Party was only able to place theirs on two.

Comments

Eternaverse:

I don't know if these are offical numbers but the FEC says Charles recieved 2,422 votes. See http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2008/2008presgeresults.pdf

planetaryjim:

Interesting page. I looked it over, and kept a copy for myself (in case they have "updates").

One of the things that I find very dubious about the page the FEC issued is that there are a number of states where Charles was a registered write-in but received no votes according to the FEC's page. This seems unlikely, since the effort to register as a write-in requires a few people in the state to take action. They would then be unlikely to all neglect to cast write-in votes.

We are aware from various news stories (see especially IndependentPoliticalReport.com) that many counties didn't "bother" to count write-in ballots. That may be true of some entire states, or of the relevant counties in states where write-in voters were casting ballots.

There is also a very large number of unreduced write-in votes shown on that page. My copy shows miscellaneous write-ins as over 112,550. I wonder if one were to go through those write-ins whether one would find a number of votes for various listed candidates, including Charles.

For the total impact of the Boston Tea Party, we should add in the 531 votes for George Phillies, who received our endorsement in New Hampshire, with his running mate Chris Bennett. This brings us up to 2,953 voters. Not bad for our first presidential election.

A couple of other thoughts. Tom Knapp on Knappster.blogspot.com makes the interesting point that the anti-establishment fervor which Howard Dean organised to bring Democrat majorities into both houses of Congress and to elect Obama has been rewarded with nothing. Nothing for Dean, and no meaningful change to the establishment. No anti-establishment policies (ending the war, for example) have been implemented. Nothing but establishment Democrats have been put in office. One would like to see a lot of disillusionment with these results, especially among younger voters.

A final point. The total number of voters the FEC lists is 131,257,328 in a country in which the government (Census bureau) admits to at least 305.8 million population. Less than 43% of the population voted in this election.

A large number of people in the country are disenfranchised deliberately by the powers that be which don't allow, for example, the members of the Boston Tea Party who are under 18 to vote. About a quarter of the population, or 76 million people are too young to vote. Another 11 million are illegal immigrants and not allowed to vote. About 20 million are legally resident but not citizens and therefore denied the opportunity to vote. About 4.1 million are "institutionalised" in prison, jail, nursing homes, hospitals, paroled, or in other institutions and denied the opportunity to vote. These persons not "qualified" to vote total about 111 million. (Views are likely to differ as to whether it would be good to extend voting to different groups in this area.)

That leaves about 63.8 million who chose not to vote. Some number of these people may have failed to register to vote, and been denied the option to vote if they tried to do so. I would guess not more than a million or so prospective voters tried to vote and were refused. So, about 20% or a fifth of the population is eligible to vote but chooses not to do so. Sixty-two million people have either given up on political change in the system, are unwilling to vote for ethical reasons, don't believe their vote would be counted, or don't see any reason to vote.

The current administration can claim a majority of those who voted in the recent election, or 52.92% of the vote according to the FEC. However, those 69+ million voters represent only 22.7% of the total population. In other words, a minority of the population a bit more than the group which chooses not to vote. To say that Obama represents the majority of the American people would be false.

In pursuing our political strategies, it might be well to consider that unvoiced fifth who have refused to vote or not bothered to vote. Since the current president was elected by a bit more than a fifth of the population, that size group can be significant. And I wonder if they are more likely potential members of our party than, say, committed Republicans who voted for McCain.

planetaryjim:

I should note that the 111 million who live in the USA and have no opportunity to vote include a great many who are going to become eligible to vote as they get older. I think this group is especially useful to target with literature and recruiting, essay contests, and Youth Caucus group formation. Those 75 million non-voters represent a quarter of the population.

Similarly, we might find an audience among other groups denied the vote. My friend Randy Dumse's "Touched by Government" project comes to mind.

Eternaverse:

UPDATE: Ballot Access News reports that Charles Jay now has 2,420 counted votes. I do not know whether or this counts write-ins.

I've sent an e-mail to Charles Jay asking what states he filled a write-in declaration in but have yet to recieve a response. I'll keep everyone updated on this.

southernpatriot:

If we add the 2,420 for CJ and the 522 for Phillies (endorsed) that puts BTP Presidential candidates at 2,942; which is just ahead of the 1972 LP.

planetaryjim:

I find it disappointing to read where so many counties in different states are refusing to even count write-in votes. Disgusting.

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Eternaverse:

I don't know if these results ( http://www.azsos.gov/results/2008/general/GEN-100.htm )are included with the rest of Charles results, but he has received at least 16 counted votes in Arizona so far.

planetaryjim:

That's monumentally cool! I don't think those votes have been included in other totals.

Thanks for that research! He was also a registered write-in in Utah and several other states. Would you mind checking with him to find out which ones? Montana was another, I'm pretty sure.

If you could continue this research, I think that would be great.

Eternaverse:

It looks like no votes have been counted for Charles in Montana, see http://sos.mt.gov/ELB/archives/2008/results/Write-Ins.2008.pdf .

After looking and finaly finding the Utah election result page, it doesn't look like they have anything but State School Board election results (for some odd reason). The page can be found at http://elections.utah.gov/electionresults.html . Though I did find his write-in declaration at http://elections.utah.gov/2008%20Declaration%20of%20Candidacy/Pres/Unatt... .

I'll try contact Charles to see what states he got to be a write-in.

planetaryjim:

Thanks. Very exciting. Good work.

southernpatriot:

This is what I found:
John Hospers (1972) 3,674 votes (2,648 as a ballot listed candidate)
Colorado 1,111 http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=2373
Washington 1,537 http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=2415
California (w) 980 http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=2372
Maine (w) 1 http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=2387
Massachusetts (w) 43 http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=2389
Rhode Island (w) 2 http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=2407

Charles Jay (2008) 2,357 (no write-in totals, yet)
Tennessee 1,005 http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=191878
Colorado 561 http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=191809
Florida 791 http://www.ourcampaigns.com/RaceDetail.html?RaceID=191813

Eternaverse:

These numbers might be true, but I think the United State House of Representatives Clerks Office has the OFFICAL number not the REAL number. We’re speaking about the government here. ;)

southernpatriot:

The House only counted votes for Hospers from Washington, Massachusetts & Colorado

planetaryjim:

Any idea why they didn't count the write-in votes from California? Seems like a big deal.

I saw John Hospers speak at a couple of events. Decent guy.

southernpatriot:

Jim,
We are talking about the US House of Representatives. Do any of us really know why they do/don't do anything?

planetaryjim:

From time to time they write things down. I've even seen Congressional Research Service and Congressional Hearings reports with, shock of all shocks, densely worded footnotes about "methodology." Really. These were printed in the 1970s, so it is probably out of fashion. But, still.

"Does anyone really know what time it is?
Does anyone really care?"

Stop the war.